tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post55977094973457241..comments2023-05-06T01:46:51.326-07:00Comments on Bright Cape Gamer: What is my win condition?Skyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10723733406348223879noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-54378615593197179662017-05-15T07:58:08.012-07:002017-05-15T07:58:08.012-07:00I'm late to the party...
So ya, turn 1, defin...I'm late to the party... <br />So ya, turn 1, definitely play high. Often turn 1 sees a 12, 11, 10, and 9 played, with the last player choosing between their 13 and something low (like a 3/4), and I'm not sure which is right - on one hand, the 13 is a valuable resource - but there are 3 times when you *really* want to play it, and 5 players, so it isn't that valuable, and this is probably the 4th or 5th most important turn - and there are cards that let you get it out of the discard, so playing it early sets you up for those - on the other, playing low when everyone else has played high might mean you can go first next round for cheap (but probably not, since the guy who played the 9 probably only gets to drop 2 guys on the board? So maybe the 13 is just right?). Getting dudes out on the board is pretty important. It also protects against DoA-All. <br /><br />As for 3 pts a couple of ways, but you choose who to smash? I mean, I assume if you're only getting 3 pts, you're only smashing someone for around 3, and so it isn't a huge deal who you choose - if it's early, it's somewhat arbitrary, and if it's late, then maybe you can evaluate who's winning. (Settlers isn't a bad game because you have to choose who to trade with, right?). I'm having a hard time thinking of ways that are minimal points for you, huge smashes for others, where you have choices on the others.Robbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01439779836398621210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-19837891074999973302017-04-09T11:59:10.494-07:002017-04-09T11:59:10.494-07:00I guess I'm just not seeing how you end up wit...I guess I'm just not seeing how you end up with 11 guys left in your courts without playing pretty badly if it was a couple turns later. I guess you also played a low card on turn 2? Or didn't draft a card that let you put a bunch of guys on the board?<br /><br />If decay was on turn 3 then it really seems wrong for Matt to have taken it. Not being the one to put 5 guys in play and lock the king in on a scoring turn costs a _lot_ of points.<br /><br />It just seemed more likely you were playing the rules wrong than that you were playing that badly. Especially with your previous assertion that no one played terribly. ;)Ziggynyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07518980519046202646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-80682142919006424292017-04-08T07:12:53.145-07:002017-04-08T07:12:53.145-07:00The Decay did not come the turn after I played my ...The Decay did not come the turn after I played my 1. It came two turns after. Believe me, if I had the option to 13 to save my court I would have. I should have saved my 1 for tempo, but I have only played the game a handful of times, and not in the past decade, so I spent it to get the maximum number of dudes.<br /><br />I am bad enough to mismanage turns ahead and such, not bad enough to ignore a card like Decay when it flips up. :)Skyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10723733406348223879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-80583965675211293022017-04-07T21:20:22.252-07:002017-04-07T21:20:22.252-07:00I was writing out a big thing about how you should...I was writing out a big thing about how you shouldn't be wasting your 1 early but it kinda sounds like you guys were playing the game wrong?<br /><br />Whoever played the lowest card in the previous round plays the first power card in the current round. So if you went last with your 1 then you were the person to first play a power card in the next turn. You were the one able to play your 13 and punish the table. (And in order to save 9 of your own guys I definitely would take it over scoring a region.) <br /><br /><br />That's what makes the 1 so powerful. It guarantees you get to play the 13 in the next round. Of course most of the time you want to play the 13 in a scoring round, but that decay card can change things. Ziggynyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07518980519046202646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-39021086801917040502017-04-07T19:39:04.808-07:002017-04-07T19:39:04.808-07:00The first turn was super weird. Everyone picked l...The first turn was super weird. Everyone picked low rank cards that awarded a lot of dudes, and I picked last. All of their cards were adjacent so I had the choice of going first with a highish card, or last with a one. I decided to go with the one, which may well have been wrong. When Vienneau blew up the courts it may well have been wrong, but the person after him would have taken it in any case, so I was getting screwed on any play.<br /><br />Not saying we all played perfectly! We were mostly new and bad at the game. However, I don't think we played terribly either. At any rate, I think that card is out of line with other cards in the deck, but my real complaint is the kingmaking thing, as you said.Skyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10723733406348223879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-34487662064443901112017-04-07T17:45:01.155-07:002017-04-07T17:45:01.155-07:00Losing 2-3 dudes while scoring a region of your ch...Losing 2-3 dudes while scoring a region of your choice is still a good deal, and it's not like the rest of the table gets spared if he didn't zap you all. The card is still there, you'll still get hit. He still has to bid high if he has a court too, don't get me wrong, but once he's bid high (and not gotten many new guys) and taken his action to put guys on the board he probably doesn't actually need to take the card itself defensively.<br /><br />Though I will say, if there were that many dudes across everyone's courts then there was probably something very wrong going on in the game. So I'm not so sure this is a flaw with the game itself and more just a problem of everyone still learning the game. <br /><br />It's a little like getting really upset in Settlers because you were hording all of the ore and then someone rolled a 7 and you had to discard half your hand, or got hit by a monopoly. It's justified to be bitter in the moment but I'm not sure it's really the game's fault. <br /><br /><br />That being said, I don't like El Grande very much for kingmaking reasons which is essentially what your complaints boil down to. So I agree with the conclusions about the game even if I'm picking nits about this specific situation.Ziggynyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07518980519046202646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-48566062873101454802017-04-07T15:18:57.731-07:002017-04-07T15:18:57.731-07:00He also blew up 5 and 7 dorks in two other people&...He also blew up 5 and 7 dorks in two other people's courts. And he had a decent stash himself, if he didn't take it then he would lose 2-3 dudes. One person (the person in the lead) had zero dudes to kill with the card, but he wanted to punish the table and everyone felt like it was obviously his best play to do so.<br /><br />There were three people to bid before me, and all of them wanted the card, so I wasn't getting it in any case. (Everyone else used low numbers to try to recoup from the blowout.)Skyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10723733406348223879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-3015362639230002442017-04-07T15:15:52.105-07:002017-04-07T15:15:52.105-07:00The tricky thing with El Grande is often the move ...The tricky thing with El Grande is often the move that blows another player out is just wrong. He probably could have taken a card to gain himself 7+ points on the table instead, and chose to kill you.<br /><br />I'm not 100% convinced you were killed, but I'm pretty sure in that situation my goal wouldn't become 'not last' it would become 'Matt comes 4th'. Or at least that would be my vocal goal... Ziggynyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07518980519046202646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-74940610495194067212017-04-07T15:10:19.463-07:002017-04-07T15:10:19.463-07:00Yes, in fact it hit me for 11! I didn't know ...Yes, in fact it hit me for 11! I didn't know the card was in the deck, or I certainly would have played differently. As soon as it flipped up I realized I was doomed, because Vienneau was first to play his card and he dropped 13 to guarantee that he got to ruin me with it. My first couple turns didn't go well, but I thought because of my huge bankroll I could recover by playing high cards and spewing dudes. When Decay of Authority hit, I lost.<br /><br />A lot of that is skill, of course. If I knew that card existed, I wouldn't have chosen the line of play that I did.<br /><br />I agree about playing to maximize score, but often you have a situation where you can get 3 points a couple different ways but you have to pick who you smash. This is the sort of situation I am talking about, because if one line gives you personally a lot more points then it is the obvious choice when you are trailing the pack.Skyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10723733406348223879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-36612470435859176452017-04-07T14:59:20.791-07:002017-04-07T14:59:20.791-07:00(In general, I play to maximize my score when I ca...(In general, I play to maximize my score when I can't try to win. I find this to be a fairly good simulation of what I'm trying to do when I am trying to win. Exceptions to this is if I'm in a unwinable position because of one player - then I play for spite - or *maybe* in a tournament setting where I've been given a "play for place" instruction)<br /><br />As for El Grande - I'm guessing that you got hit by "Decay of Authority - return all" when you had a lot of guys (8+) in your court in round 2-3? I think that this is really the only blow-out situation in the game. One card in an 11-card deck can come up at a bad time... And you can play around it. Robbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01439779836398621210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-18710110087903427702017-04-07T14:10:59.505-07:002017-04-07T14:10:59.505-07:00Yeah, this is why I like the points system in Cast...Yeah, this is why I like the points system in Castles so much, I think. There is enough guesswork that you really don't know who will win until the final card drops. In most games, at least.Skyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10723733406348223879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1305372753022597815.post-38065593248461972142017-04-07T14:02:18.400-07:002017-04-07T14:02:18.400-07:00If I can't win, my default purpose becomes &qu...If I can't win, my default purpose becomes "end the game as soon as possible" because that way we can start the next game and it's kind of justified and people understand.<br /><br />That works for something like Stone Age where the game ends when certain resources are depleted. But it doesn't work for El Grande.<br /><br />I think it's rare that someone of your skill level is ever entirely out of it. El Grande has the option for you to convince everyone else to leave you alone thus giving you a chance to recover. But only when they have a roughly equal choice, which isn't too common.<br /><br />I can often be satisfied with a solid 2nd place finish if I have a horrid start, but normally that's from building myself up as if trying to win vs. tearing down the 3rd and 2nd place players. <br /><br />I don't like the "beat the 2nd and 3rd place" folks plan. At least, it felt weird in El Grande. It feels normal in online Agricola where there is ranking so 3rd is different from 4th. But for a game where you win or don't win, 3rd vs. 4th isn't a difference I want to emphasize because then it encourages play like you're describing - 4th beating on 3rd - and I don't think that's a positive influence on the fun levels. <br /><br />I don't have a really good answer. It's tough to be knocked out early and have no mechanism for coming back. But I'm also wary of the trend towards games where you can't influence each other. I guess the optimal game is one with secret, high variable points that allow for come backs?Vienneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09647759933462318708noreply@blogger.com